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The Idiot’s Guide to Gaslighting

June 24, 2010

Psychological Definition from the Urban Dictionary:

A form of intimidation or psychological abuse, sometimes called Ambient Abuse where false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory, perception and quite often, their sanity. The classic example of gaslighting is to switch something around on someone that you know they’re sure to notice, but then deny knowing anything about it, and to explain that they “must be imagining things” when they challenge these changes. A more psychological definition of gaslighting is “an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim – having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception.

Eddie Murphy’s Rendition:

Pass this along to all the single ladies you know that have “I SUPPORT MY BLACK KINGS WITHOUT ANY EXPECTATIONS OF RECIPROCITY!” stickers plastered on their foreheads.  Then, let the healing begin.

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49 Comments leave one →
  1. Hodan permalink
    June 24, 2010 2:31 pm

    lol, Eddie Murphy @ his best.

  2. Hodan permalink
    June 24, 2010 3:02 pm

    I’m sorry for the multiple postings today, but I’m bored @ work and killing time with visiting my favorite blogs.

    Just wanted to throw out there this amazing blog I discovered managed and run by an interracial couple (black female, white guy), they are mostly my age in their 20s, but some awesome advice and infos on various things:

    http://www.illuminatedmind.net/2010/06/17/introducing-evyan/

    disclaimer: neither do I know them, nor am I getting any benefit out of passing it around.

    • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
      June 24, 2010 3:15 pm

      Thanks, Hodan, I’ll have to check it out.

  3. Lola Falana permalink
    June 24, 2010 3:17 pm

    There is a generalized form of gaslighting going on with black women being told that they are so overweight,unattractive,uncouth and combative that black men have to seek out non black women to keep their sanity. This is coming from black men who choose to exclusively date interracially but do not want the sellout or self hatred labels put on them that black women who find non black mates get very often including me. This psychological chess game is causing some black women to bend over backwards being over accomodating to the most undeserving of men just so he won’t “think I’m like the rest of the black women”. What I have observed in victims of this abuse is that some of them will side with the abuser against any opposing viewpoints or opinions the victim wants to prove loyalty to the abuser in dealing with people who suffer from this I see a pattern of low self worth/value and want to be loved/people pleasers. We need to educate all the black young women we come into contact with about self esteem, healthy relationships and not worshipping men I talk to many young people in my life about the issues effecting them and I’m optimistic of a change.

  4. randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
    June 24, 2010 3:30 pm

    Lola Falana :

    There is a generalized form of gaslighting going on with black women being told that they are so overweight,unattractive,uncouth and combative that black men have to seek out non black women to keep their sanity. This is coming from black men who choose to exclusively date interracially but do not want the sellout or self hatred labels put on them that black women who find non black mates get very often including me. This psychological chess game is causing some black women to bend over backwards being over accomodating to the most undeserving of men just so he won’t “think I’m like the rest of the black women”. What I have observed in victims of this abuse is that some of them will side with the abuser against any opposing viewpoints or opinions the victim wants to prove loyalty to the abuser in dealing with people who suffer from this I see a pattern of low self worth/value and want to be loved/people pleasers. We need to educate all the black young women we come into contact with about self esteem, healthy relationships and not worshipping men I talk to many young people in my life about the issues effecting them and I’m optimistic of a change.

    Lola, what do you do? We might need your input over here!

  5. Lola Falana permalink
    June 24, 2010 4:08 pm

    Christelyn I’m one of your regulars I was under Lovelybubbly then I noticed there was someone using my name so then I was under Zoriansmom then I thought that’s too personal because that’s my sons name but anyhow I’m Sabrina and what I spoke of is situations that people very close to me are going threw right now and I offer support and pratical advice.

    • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
      June 24, 2010 4:14 pm

      OK, hi Sabrina! Might have you guest posting up in here about this…

  6. STEP ASIDE - Black Man Coming Through permalink
    June 24, 2010 5:13 pm

    LMAO!! I inspired this post, eh? Okay… say hello to the bad guy 😉

  7. Lola Falana permalink
    June 24, 2010 5:34 pm

    My comment must have touched you well if you read Cw Escape from Pompeii Protect your mind at all costs you would gain more insight on the loved one I’m close to who I’m convinced has been gaslit.

  8. rainebeaux permalink
    June 24, 2010 5:47 pm

    😐 Yo, “Step”, you think this shiggity is funny?! Aight, then….look, just do us a favor, ‘kay: follow yer own name’s instructions, DIG IT? This *technically* ain’t about you! [Isweahfomaude, folks are gonna get enough of tossing their coins in the wrong damn well!] (Excuse my slang, folks.)

    _____

    *ahem* (^y’all didn’t see that-lol) yes, I could’ve written THE book on this subject, but since until recently I was still suffering (and Dr. Robin Stern beat me to it), my past essays will have to suffice. Also, Sabrina has brought the thunder and lightning many a day! 😀

  9. June 24, 2010 6:28 pm

    See, here’s my problem with men like this Step-Aside character. He is just here to eff with us and we’re just gonna dialogue with him as if he is interested in actual dialogue. He has been very clear that he does not agree with our premise, doesn’t want to discuss the issues we have raised that black woman face, but instead has his own agenda. He wants to discuss black men’s issues when clearly we had established already that this is about OUR lived experience as black women. See how rude and disrespectful that is? And then he returns here to laugh at us? “LMAO”??? Yes, it’s funny to him, but it’s real life to us. Black women’s very voices are at stake and he laughs?

    Why are you here Mr. Step Aside? It it ego? Plain old refusal to respect that black women should get to have our own conversations without being needled for your own mirth?

    People who try to tell you that what you experienced didn’t happen, or really wasn’t a big deal, or didn’t hurt as much as you know it did, do not have your best interest at heart. They are trying to shut you up for their own benefit. SHOUT IT LOUD if you must, but then be prepared to act in your own best interest, whatever that means for you. Don’t waste valuable time repeating over and over the same talking points. Black women were having THIS EXACT CONVERSATION in the 1970s. Read Toni Cade Bambara’s The Black Woman. It’s time to ACT.

    @ Chris “Yes. That may be your experience but that doesn’t make it real?” Didn’t some other black male commenter say something like that to you in a thread? Or was that to Deb? Can you imagine a black woman questioning a black man’s lived experience as a black man in America? They have been using the sad, sad saga of the “po’ black man and the evil evil white devil” for so long now to snap us back to attention on them that we don’t even question little micro-acts of disrespect and silencing that they inflict on us. Disgusting.

    “When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” -Maya Angelou

    • Janice Rhoshalle permalink
      June 25, 2010 10:22 am

      Well, if you look at the news, the superpower will soon be (if not already) China. Then who’s the blame going to go to then? This whole blaming the white man thing is old. Yes, there are educational and socioeconomic injustices that have hurt black men for eons…but why is it always the black woman’s responsibility to dig black men out of the muck and mire?

      But, as so many of you have said, this is not about black men, but about black women finding happiness beyond men of their own race and culture. We’re broadening horizons here and looking forward, not looking back. We know our history and now we’re looking towards a future that isn’t so wrapped up in the color of one’s skin but the content of one’s character. That was King’s dream…and it’s the one Chris and I have for ourselves and our sistas, too.

      • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
        June 25, 2010 10:25 am

        Couldn’t have said it better myself, J.

  10. Lola Falana permalink
    June 24, 2010 7:25 pm

    @Stepaside. Your not a bad guy actually the people who gaslit others have sociopathic tendencies they never admit their wrongdoing its always something wrong with you not them. Men are victims of gaslit syndrome too, Gaslit is manipulation,con games,mind screws and the ability to syke you out. I have heard many stories of men who were used,lied to, taken advantage of by women and made to feel like the villian when actually he was the victim. So nobody is bashing men not me or Christelyn were bashing sociopaths.

    • STEP ASIDE - Black Man Coming Through permalink
      June 25, 2010 7:22 am

      Thank you for saying that, Lola. I’ve looked at the definition of “gaslighting” (don’t know if that’s a regional term) and I don’t see that as what I was doing. I simply disagreed and offered a different perspective… I never denied that Black women were going through some very big problems. Christelyn and I were, however, debating on where the source of the problem lies. She believed the Black church, the Black community (etc…) is causing the problems whereas I felt society at large is causing it.

      I was invited to come here by Christelyn on Facebook. For everyone who feels I’m taking this whole thing in the wrong direction, I apologize. I’ll leave.

  11. June 24, 2010 9:07 pm

    There is also the phrase “the power of the d*ck.” Women’s self image is so damaged especially when it comes to a man. The reason why most women will fall for gaslighting is because they are afraid of losing the man. They have placed such a high value on being coupled that they feel they are nothing without a partner. I have seen it and worked with it and have family members wrapped up in this. When women realize that they only have the power to change themself, when they start taking back control of their lives, then such a term will be no longer in existence.

  12. Lena Horne permalink
    June 25, 2010 7:55 am

    @Stepaside. I need to ask Christelyn to ask the other bloggers not to make you feel like your not welcomed because how can men and women fix the disconnect were facing if we don’t speak about our problems openly with one another? I have brothers,uncles,cousins, my father my son and my husband to speak with about issues women and men have with one another, some of the women here don’t have that but its very productive to have the male point of view or the dialogue could turn into a pity party!

  13. Janice Rhoshalle permalink
    June 25, 2010 10:13 am

    A friend of mine suggested we call the blog “dating while all guys are crazy, brown, white, black, yellow, and or combination,” and I’m hard pressed to disagree. The fact of the matter there are men of all races who have issues (I mean, really, the number of white men throwing their wives overboard on cruise ships instead of just asking for a divorce is enough to make me go hmmm…)

    But Stepaside, you shouldn’t feel like our discussions are some kind of personal attack on you or every black man. But it’s clear that there are issues that are particular to black men — but highlighting them doesn’t mean we don’t welcome the black men in our lives, or to this blog.

    One of the things that Christelyn and I are hoping to accomplish with this blog and with our book, is to let black women know they have choices — and that those choices are okay.

    Just last night, I was speaking to a neighbor friend of mine who said that she could never marry a white man because for so long she’s been opposed to black men who marry white women. “People would like I’d lost my mind,” she said, noting that she often keeps company with a white man who is some famous basketball player who wants her to marry him.

    So what if people think she’s crazy. (Which is exactly what I told her.) Her happiness is no one else’s concern…and for too black women the perceptions of others — the ill-advise from their churches, the turned up lip from their girlfriend — continue to stand in the way of their happiness. It’s no different than women of a certain age who choose to date younger men — how dare anyone judge a woman for that (and don’t get me started on that darn “cougar” label).

    If there are those who would take this so personally as to drop out because there are those who don’t agree with their point-of-view, we can’t stop them from leaving. (And we wish you well as you go.) But we’re all about live-and-let live here — and, Christelyn will agree with me on this, all opinions are welcome, as long as they are respectful and help further more interesting and enlightening discussion.

    So, Stepaside, it’s your choice…you can get to steppin’ or stick around for a little while longer. But rest assured, it’s always going to be jumpin’ up in here…

  14. A.C. permalink
    June 25, 2010 2:59 pm

    Hello All: “all opinions are welcome, as long as they are respectful and help further more interesting and enlightening discussion”.

    I am so happy to see someone put the “sense” back in common sense. Why would anyone think that Black Men’s opinions won’t be welcome? Once the person has ideas that will positively add to what the bloggers are trying to accomplish? For goodness sake this is about enlightment and education, not male bashing!

    Many a woman would have experiences and stories galore to share regarding “gaslighting” and ‘double-dealing’ but if Mr. Moveaside should note, women did not come here to bash men. We came here to discuss, dissolve and digest information that we wish to share with each other.

    @ Janice: Black women have been ‘gaslit’ for so long, that many women believe that no matter what decision they make they will displease someone, as it is their duty to please the BC and Family, including ALL extensions. I’ve seen it happen. This is why we are educating women to be open minded and think of their options.

  15. Fallible Sage permalink
    June 25, 2010 7:54 pm

    “Pass this along to all the single ladies you know that have “I SUPPORT MY BLACK KINGS WITHOUT ANY EXPECTATIONS OF RECIPROCITY!” stickers plastered on their foreheads. Then, let the healing begin.”

    I smell some gaslighting. I was riding with you until the inference made in that quote, which goes a little something like this: “You idiot, black men aren’t capable of being the things you may need in a partner. Men of another race will fill that void if you would just wise up” which is misleading and damaging.

    The truth is, men of all hues are capable of being terrible partners, that should go without saying. If you’ve been mistreated by a black man and are now being cared for as you should be by a man of another race, know the opposite is true somewhere as well.

    • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
      June 25, 2010 8:08 pm

      What? Who left the gas on!? It was an exagerration, meant to make a point. Of course I know not all black men are the anti-christ, but some of them sure what to be him when they grow up! One this board, we speak of the specific issues and challenges certain black women face because high expections and burdens put upon us, OFTEN with no inkling of reciprocity. THIS is the problem. I wish to heck someone would show me where I said that black men were the de-bil and non-black men had odorless poo. This is however, a haven, a place of support for black women who chose to exercise their options interracially and interculturally. If you’re not one of those women (or the non-black men who love them), then perhaps this blog is not for you. May I suggest Essence.com?

  16. Fallible Sage permalink
    June 25, 2010 8:23 pm

    “One this board, we speak of the specific issues and challenges certain black women face because high expectations and burdens put upon us, OFTEN with no inkling of reciprocity. THIS is the problem.”

    I understand what your blog is, but I hope that you understand that some things can come across as bashing, which doesn’t seem to flow with what your stated objective is. Now did you expressly make a comparison between black men and men of another race? No, but the word I used was inference, the implication was there for anyone capable of middle school comprehension.

    I love all women, especially black women, whether they choose to exercise their options inter racially or culturally or not, because of the role that black women have played in my life. But don’t forget to love me back, whether you marry me or not. 🙂

    • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
      June 25, 2010 8:39 pm

      Welcome aboard, Fallible Sage. Glad you’re throwing your hat in the ring.

      • Fallible Sage permalink
        June 25, 2010 10:14 pm

        Thanks. We’ve now taken the debate from Clutch to your neck of the woods. 🙂 Eager to hear about the collabo you mentioned on my blog.

      • randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
        June 26, 2010 6:21 am

        Oh…I’ve got a good one. Friend me on Facebook and I’ll send you a message. Just click the photo of me on the right.

    • BlkQueenBee permalink
      June 26, 2010 10:19 am

      I’m happy to make comparisons between black men and white men or black men and any other race of men in the United States, and comment on how that affects us as black women. I have no interest in making these politically correct statements along the lines of “we need to work it out”, “we need more dialogue between black men and black women”, “there are some good black men”, etc. etc, ad infinutum.

      That’s all been done to death for decades and has produced no positive results for black women. All it has done is simply stall and allow black men to maintain the status quo, which is not a positive environment for black women.

      Here are the facts:

      It is black men who are writing and performing rap and hip-hop music that heaps abuse on black women and objectifies black women as bitches and “hos”. And sure, this music has a multi-racial audience, but it is black men who listen to it and take it to heart, the ones who want to embrace the “lifestyle” portrayed in these songs.

      It is black men that say the terrible, hurtful things about black women to each other and the rest of the world, things like black women are crazy, fat, bitchy, mean, loud, masculine, low-class, etc.

      It is black men that knock black women up and abandon them, so that now over 70% of black children born in the United States are bastard children, born out of wedlock. It is black men that don’t pay child support to these children.

      It is black men perpetrating crime like theft, robbery, assault, etc. on black women.

      It is black men in black neighborhoods that operate as sexual predators concerning black women and black girls. There are no groups of unemployed white men or Asian men standing around on corners yelling out sexual slurs and threats to black women, teenage girls and even pre-teen girls and there are no groups of white men (or any other race men) that gang-rape 11 year-old black girls at a “party” in their neighborhood. There are no white men giving 7 year-old black girls gonorrhea in their throats and then stating that this girl in question, the daughter of one of the many women he has sex with, was “asking for it”, and “came on to him” by rubbing up against him.

      It is black men that practice “colorism” and are its enthusiastic enforcers among black people.

      It is black men who glorify violence and misogyny, black men whose main interest in life is getting as much strange stuff as possible out in the clubs and black men who try to get over on people when ever they can.

      It is black men who can’t seem to hold a job, get an education, stay out of jail, etc. and expect black women to provide a place for them to live, a car for them to drive occasionally, and bail them out of jail when required.

      It is black men who denigrate and scoff at black women for getting an education, for “trying to act white”, for trying to better themselves, and yes, exercising their free will to date whomever they choose, regardless of race, and it is black men who urge other black women to join them in castigating the women that are trying to make their individual lives better.

      It is black men who have abandoned their communities to the ravages of crime, who have abdicated their responsibilities to the children they have spawned, who have simply stopped marrying black women.

      Simply put, it is black men who are the biggest problem for black women.

      So, I don’t want to hear about the exception that you’re going to immediately dredge up, I’m interested in the aggregate.

      And I don’t want to hear about how white people oppressed the black man, and that why things are the way they are for black men. We have the same black skin. We suffered, too.

      Yes, if it makes you feel better, we can repeat, once again, that white people were the problem. But, now, you’re the problem. White people, now, for the most part are just occasionally annoying. Sure, there is still racism. But white racism is not breaking into my car and boosting my stereo. White racism is not making a 16 year-old black girl raise a child alone because the trifling 34 year-old “brotha” that got her pregnant and told her he would always love her suddenly left town and went to live with his cousin down South once he found out she was pregnant.

      Now, if you’re going to trot out that old, broken-down horse of “black unity”, then how about making the lives of your black sisters easier by not failing in almost every way so consistently? That would sure help the cause of black unity.

      And how about not running breathlessly after any Becky, Carmen, Su-Lee, etc, that crosses the street in front of you? You think we don’t notice that? You think we didn’t feel something when you paraded her in front of us like a prize you won at the arcade? BTW, that’s when we used to care – we ourselves are expanding our horizons in terms of possible life partners. So, there is no use trying to make us feel lousy about something you’re been doing for a long time, and if you haven’t been doing it, its something almost every one of you would do if given the opportunity.

      Which brings me, in closing, to the whole “good black men” construct. Yes, I know you exist. I know some of you. Although, I will say this, even a lot of the “good black men” seem to invariably have a baby mama somewhere or something. But, hey, at least they haven’t been in prison, or, are actively engaged in some criminal activity.

      But, my overarching question for the good black men is this: Since you are “good black men”, why don’t you stop the bad black men from doing the things they do? Isn’t that what men do in other cultures and other societies? Obviously, that’s a rhetorical question, because the answer is yes.

      So, you “good black men”, are you afraid of these other black men, and that fear is so intense that you just leave your “precious women”, your “African Queens”, the child-bearing vessels of your race, to fend for themselves against these savages? Cause that’s what it looks like from this perspective – a wholesale abandonment of the “black community”, and headlong flight towards looking out for Number 1.

      Please excuse me if I do the same.

      • Fallible Sage permalink
        June 26, 2010 11:25 am

        Then you are content in being wrong. You can stick your fingers in your ears and yell LALALALA! At the top of your lungs and continue to be willfully ignorant, but maybe someone else will read your response and then mine, and then think a bit.

        There are many stereotypes and statistics about black women, some you mentioned. I’m sure that you wouldn’t want me to view black women holistically based on such assumptions. You are inflicting what you say you’re unhappy about receiving.

        You point on the music industry: Although I don’t absolve black artist of the responsibility to make better decisions with the music they make, it is white owners of record labels that feed a diverse audience what it is demanding unfortunately, for the primary purpose of a dollar… why don’t you get mad at them?

        You rolled out your stats in an argument against black men (which have also been quoted ad nauseum and infinitum), and don’t wanna hear about any of the stats that created the situation… OK. Well what about this food for thought? Have you been to other countries to determine what the conditions are there for their historically disenfranchised, whether it be Asia, Europe, India? Poverty and systemic and pervasive institutional racist policies will create crime and other symptoms associated, no matter the ethnicity. Have you considered that America tends to get the best and brightest of everywhere other country? If there was another county perceived to be “better” than this one, would not many of the best and the brightest black men immigrate, leaving the rest behind here? Same everywhere else.

        Black unity? All of the issues that you spoke about are reflective of one end of the spectrum of a self loathing of a molested and broken people. The other end is expressed in a hyper vigilance against one’s race (or aspects of) as a whole. We call that internalized racism.

        You made the point about the support that men of other cultures provide each other, yet you exalted the individualistic ideology that is pervasive among black people who are “making it”. Now that we are offered opportunities for assimilation (however surface), we blame those who have not yet been able to transcend for their conditions. When in large that’s a huge issue for our community. There was a time when we all coexisted and supported each other because we had no choice but to in our segregated neighborhoods and the statistics were kinder. But now we leave, and those that are left are left, left to figure it out often with no skills or social resources or capital,proper environment to do so, and are despised by the likes of you.

        Everything else you’ve offered are generalization, many disgusting I might add, that couldn’t possibly be true of only or all black men. (It is BLACK MEN giving children gonorrhea of the throat, WTF!) Wow! A number has sure been done on you. The fact that you judge all black men based on some, don’t grant us autonomy to be individuals, and won’t even recognize this to be reflective of the privilege afforded many of other races in this country, a privilege not given to black men. Now I’m sure that some of the stats that you gave are true, but if you want to compare black men and other men where we are now, then you also have to consider the history and conditions that fostered those differences and disparities… I know I know, you don’t want to hear excuses. Not an excuse, just a reality.

        You can make any decision that you want about who you will date/ and or marry for whatever reason you want to, I don’t care. You can also anesthetize yourself to these facts if you like, but excuse me if I live in the realm of what’s real and salient…maybe not for you, but for anyone living it or able to contemplate cause and effect. Try to divorce your own miniscule experience and consider someone else’s.

        What it takes is for all of us to work to make the changes that we want to see in our community. Mentor a child or a parent, extend some resources to address these issues instead of blaming the victims of a social set up that was in place long before any of us got here. In time we can all do better, overcome our damage, but no one does anything alone.

        The men you dicussed, myself included, are complicit, but so are the conditions. Even black men, whether good or not are worthy of honest dialogue. “Goodness” is subjective, and I know you believe yourself an authority, but even people who are misguided and make mistakes are worthy of respect. I respect you as a matter of fact.

      • Neecy permalink
        June 26, 2010 11:36 am

        THANK YOU! Personally, I have no desire to hear what ANY Black man has to say on a Black women’s blog about us. I don’t care how GREAT or GOOD their intentions are. Its a day late and a dollar short IMO to even care or listen to what any BM has to say about how BW feel about them or how BW (the sane ones) are finally leaving MENTALLY and PHYSICALLY.

        Like you said, we have spent decades allowing them to say what they want and its simply a day late and a dollar short as far as I am concerned.

        This need for Black women to allow “good BM” to come in and state their POV’s means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

        WHy must they be here? What is it going to solve or change? The only reason they are here is to beg that we don’t JUDGE THEM or all BM or still give some BM a chance. Once again it ALWAYS comes back to THEM – BM.

        Why don’t these so called “good BM” go to the INTERRACIAL BLOGS of Black men and NON BW or other Black male blogs to discuss their views?? they won’t of course. Since when did Black men ever hold each other accountable for anything. Yet they come over to progressive Blogs where we BW are and want to throw in their 2 cents???

        How is debating and sharing their thoughts with BW in these forums going to change anything? All these BM here and who come and try to have discussions in these kinds of forums with BLACK WOMEN are just trying to grasp at the last straws they have at their keeper status on Black women. That’s it. Now the so called Good BM are realizing they remained quiet and idle for TOO long, that BW are finally not looking back. So in a last ditch attempt they are trying to NOW offer their POV’s and requests for not judging or looking at all BM as being bad.

        PLEASE!

      • Fallible Sage permalink
        June 26, 2010 11:45 am

        I’m here because I find the author’s story on how she found love intriguing. I also think that she’s a great writer and offers much to think about. I’m here for the same reasons you are, to exchange and possibly grow. I shouldn’t threaten you if I have a difference of opinion or offer another perspective Neecy. This black man’s not so scary.

      • June 26, 2010 1:04 pm

        Simply brilliant.

        It’s like you’re at a party with friends, and this smelly drunk, with vomit on his shirt, keeps asking why you wont give him your number.

        Like, really?

  17. Pantherbaby permalink
    June 25, 2010 10:26 pm

    @Step aside Last name change I promise! The problems facing black men and women are so complex and multi layered that the discussion on it will be a series of discussions and solutions not one what we see in the inner cities all over America and even blacks who are middle class is various issues : Black men not being able to provide for families, women out of necessity stepping in both roles as single parent and breadwinner, the blacks that have become middle and upper middle class do not open businesses that can employ people in black communities Asians do it others do it we don’t just think if Oprah,JayZ,Will Smith,Micheal Jordan,Bill Cosby and Sean Diddy Combs invest their resources opened a company that had branches in every major city employed thousands of people how many lives would change? We as black men and women got to be candid about our differences then try out practical solutions.

  18. Frannie permalink
    June 26, 2010 11:03 am

    OMG, BlkQueenBee, you can bring it, girl!

    You are always good at writing out what I’m thinking. I cosign 100%!

  19. randomthoughtsfromcali permalink*
    June 26, 2010 11:50 am

    @Fallible Sage (did you know that was an oxymoron? I’m sure you did 🙂
    I think that what BlkQueenBee, Betty Chambers and others are essentially saying that the arguments you posit are boilerplate propaganda that keeps the discussion circular, which prohibits progress, has the Black Community held hostage by inertia, and maintains the status quo, in which black men are the sole beneficiaries. The women on this board, myself included, want to move on from the perpetual ‘wringing of the hands’ and have our chance at a GOOD life, full of love and a lot LESS loneliness. And if it’s not with a good black man (because I don’t care how much you huff and puff there simply aren’t enough to go around, we’re going elsewhere. This is a haven for those women, so don’t be surprised when you get piled upon. You’re welcome to stay, because I’m open to contrary thought (hey, it’s good fodder for the book!), but just remember whose house you’re stepping into. 🙂

    • Fallible Sage permalink
      June 26, 2010 12:13 pm

      LOL It is an oxymoron, especially when accepted at face value. Most wise people realize they know nothing and are prone to error though. That’s what my man Socrates said anyway.

      No worries about the piling, I can take it… 🙂

  20. Neecy permalink
    June 26, 2010 11:56 am

    FALLIBLE SAGE,

    Can I please ask you why you are here. I know you were invited and I know this blog allows anyone who follows the guidelines to post. but REALLY why are you here???

    I find that Black men like yourself, your total motivation to argue those same tired points are ultimately looking out for your own best interest as BLACK MEN. And I love this new slick way of blaming “de white man” by calling all of these issues BW face as a result of “SOCIETY”. Society = “de white man”. its just a new and improved way of once again taking the blame off your actions as Black men and blaming some other factor – “society” (i.e. “de white man). (rolls eyes). Why you and other BM who love to come to these progressive BW sites don’t spend this much time and energy on other Black male blogs and other Interracial black male blogs is quite telling.

    The fear you have of BW (the good, sane ones) leaving this corrupted BC behind is at an all time high now that you realize many of us just aren’t going to keep quiet or lie to ourselves OR YOU anymore. You so called “good and concerned” BM sat quietly (while benefiting) off BW being used sand abused in the Black community. You sat and watched as Black women TRIED to take the role that YOU BM should have taken naturally and fail miserably. You sat and didn’t say Sh!t while you watched all your brethren publicly denounce BW as they uplift women of other races FOR DECADES. You sat by and sat and sat and BENEFITED. NOOOOOOW you have so much to say about how we gots to work together and how BW shouldn’t judge all bm, and WHO it was that started this mess (DA WHITE MAN and SOCIETY)? Seriously? you think the majority of us who have mentally and in many cases physically moved on really give a damn??????????????

    The fact is, its a sense of entitlement and selfishness that brings BM like you to these kinds of blogs. Its almost like in the past the White person who always felt they needed to add their input on discussions and things amongst Blacks who were trying to figure out ways to overcome discrimination and racism. No one needed that White person’s opinion or POV b/c unless that White person was willing to take their OPINIONS and THOUGHTS to the masses of Whites perpetuating cruel acts and racism and discriminations against BLACKS their points were MOOT as far as I am concerned.

    I am so tired of the leeway that so many BW feel they have to give to BM just b/c they are Black. Its over. let it go. the fact is I NEVER see BM put any kind of energy into policing other BM or trying to train or teach other BM how to do right by their community, women and children. YET there is always a few “good” brothers willing to entertain the idea that us BW always need to be reminded that not all BM are bad yadda yadda yadda. Save it. Maybe if you so called good BM did your parts you wouldn’t feel the need to DEFEND yourselves or ask BW to stop judging all of you.

    I am so sick of the small minority of decent BM begging BW to stop pointing out all the failures of BM in general b/c 1% of them are good and deserving of a chance?

    Why don’t you good BM do what you have been doing all along and REMAIN SILENT. It’s a day late and a dollar short now to want to try to work things out and/or blame “society” (i.e. “de white man”). Your best bet is to go back and talk to the BW whom you still have power over. You’d be more productive there than on these kinds of forums.

    • Fallible Sage permalink
      June 26, 2010 12:22 pm

      If i’m honest Neecy, I didn’t read a lot of what you said up there because I get the impression that at best you probably repeated much of what you said already and at worst I’ll feel the urge to reply in another “long response” and my daughter and I (Yes, I’m a full time single father raising a 13 yo black woman) would like to enjoy this day. I do agree wholeheartedly that black women have gotten the short end of the stick, and I am supportive in anyone finding love and a good life wherever they find it. I am not the enemy. Also understand my thoughts will not always be contrary, but when they are I will express that. Neecy you can call it tired, but your frustration, anger, or indifference towards black men like me or otherwise, doesn’t make reality dissapate into the wind. If this is a place for venting and getting things off of breasts that may be factual, errant, unfair, or out of context, and never to be challenged then say so. But if this is a place to share opinions and exchange about a topic, then I don’t get the “why are you here?” line of questioning. Once again, this is not a battle to convince you of anything, I don’t care enough about what you do or feel in your personal life (I don’t mean that to be offensive, just big picturing this thing), but I will continue to express myself if I’m welcome here.

      • Neecy permalink
        June 26, 2010 12:35 pm

        I’ve said my peace. there is nothing more I need to say. Enjoy your day!

    • Fallible Sage permalink
      June 26, 2010 12:46 pm

      You too 🙂

  21. Neecy permalink
    June 26, 2010 12:04 pm

    Fallible Sage :I’m here because I find the author’s story on how she found love intriguing. I also think that she’s a great writer and offers much to think about. I’m here for the same reasons you are, to exchange and possibly grow. I shouldn’t threaten you if I have a difference of opinion or offer another perspective Neecy. This black man’s not so scary.

    I didn’t say you were scarey. However, the fact that you are making long posts about how SOCIETY at large (i.e. “de white man”) is responsible for what BW are going through and how we should ‘go easy on a brutha” is telling.

  22. Neecy permalink
    June 26, 2010 12:21 pm

    randomthoughtsfromcali :@Fallible Sage (did you know that was an oxymoron? I’m sure you did I think that what BlkQueenBee, Betty Chambers and others are essentially saying that the arguments you posit are boilerplate propaganda that keeps the discussion circular, which prohibits progress, has the Black Community held hostage by inertia, and maintains the status quo, in which black men are the sole beneficiaries. The women on this board, myself included, want to move on from the perpetual ‘wringing of the hands’ and have our chance at a GOOD life, full of love and a lot LESS loneliness. And if it’s not with a good black man (because I don’t care how much you huff and puff there simply aren’t enough to go around, we’re going elsewhere. This is a haven for those women, so don’t be surprised when you get piled upon. You’re welcome to stay, because I’m open to contrary thought (hey, it’s good fodder for the book!), but just remember whose house you’re stepping into.

    I’m not trying to be mean to him. I’m just being real. But the fact is, if he is going to come with that same tired blaming of other forces (SOCIETY) as to why BW are going through the things we are going through, then he best be prepared to handle the pushback.

    I agree that society ultimately deals the death blow. But society realizes BW are left to fend for themselves and half if not more won’t even do that b/c they are so consumed with fighting the BM’s battles and obsessing over and worshiping BM. However, what these so called Good BM who are always pointing their finger to as to why BW are suffering, fail to realize is this :SOCIETY only does to BW what their own community does and allows. Society sees that the BW have little to no VALUE at all in her own community. They are just following the “when in Rome do what the Romans do”.

    The fact is, ONCE BM started to publicly degrade their own women, society did it as well b/c that is what was selling and still sells. And BW still support BM and people who poop and piss on them. I saw a complete difference in how society treated BW in the 80’s before all this Black male misogynistic hip hop came about. I grew up in the era so I can speak to it. I literally saw the change in how society treated BW after hip hop took a turn for the worse in the early 90’s. BW up until that point were seen as normal functioning attractive women for the most part.

    So in reality. It still falls back on BLACK MEN. Because when a community and men stand by and uplift their women, society follows suit. Society poops and pissed on BW b/c they know they will not get any pushback from ANYONE including her own community and men.

    I am no longer interested in handling these “good BM” with baby spoons. frankly, they haven’t done a darn thing YET to deserve any kind of leeway.

  23. twin permalink
    June 26, 2010 1:06 pm

    There are always two sides to a story so attacking black men for abandoning children they fathered did you ever wonder did he and the woman get married was becoming parents discussed and agreed upon by both parties or were they irresponsible didn’t use birth control so know a single mother is raising a child in poverty? As for crime in inner cities those atrocities happen in any lower income neighborhood whether its the trailer park or the part of town where mexicans live not just the black community. There are white serial killers,racist and deviants in every group. To say all black men are like the worst of them is to say all black women live in the projects got six kids by six different men, on welfare, talk loud, sleeps around, no education and rude.Do you see the foolishness in that?

  24. STEP ASIDE - Black Man Coming Through permalink
    June 26, 2010 4:56 pm

    Well, well, well. If everyone’s quite done (and you’re probably NOT)… I’m going to speak now.

    Before I start, I’d like to give a quick “thank you” to Janice and Pantherbaby (Lola?) for their posts to me. I did like that and it made me hopeful. At this point, I’m only going to address Fallible Sage or any other Black man that I suspect may be here… or may wish to comment in the future.

    Fallible Sage, as a fellow brotha, you have no idea how embarrassing it is to witness the overall reaction to your presence here. I’m not going to engage in some kind of back-and-forth with you …I’m just going to tell you how it is and leave. THIS is not your space. It isn’t my space either (that’s a few domains that way… BA DUM CHINK!!). Okay, but seriously.

    I didn’t realize it at first because I was invited (by the blog owner) but really, Black men are not “supposed” to be here. It’s just where these women are at in this point in their lives. It happens. Non-Black women go through it too with the men of their own respective races. I mean, do you think ALL White women are happy with the state of White men? Of course not. There are a segment of White women who feel that White men are the WORST men on the planet. Everyone is not going to be happy, that’s something you need to remember throughout this post.

    What did you hope to accomplish here? That you, being one of the good Black men, might be able to come in and show a different side to the story? Then, the women here, being so impressed by your input, would suddenly see their errors? PFFT! They don’t even see your point of view. I know it’s what I thought at first, but it’s really going to be all for nothing. In fact, we’re here to our detriment. To both of us. To everyone here.

    Everything that I’ve said on this blog was correct. I believe in it. So much so that I’m willing to leave this blog and know that everyone here will eventually find themselves to the same conclusions (even if I may not get the credit I so RICHLY deserve). These ladies are not trying to make friends with Black men, converse with Black men… or do anything with Black men. That’s just not where they’re at yet. Maybe they’ll never get there. Either way, we can’t do anything about the way they feel about us.

    The women who frequent sites like this (BW IR sites) are not here to debate. Someone mentioned that here on this thread. Some (like Christelyn) may say that this site is open to different ideas, but really? It’s not. It’s just politically correct to say such things.

    So, Fallible Sage and any other Black man reading this… everytime you make a comment, think about what you’re trying to accomplish with that comment. Then, demolish it. It’s inevitable. You’re not going to change anyone here.

    The best thing these women need right now, I believe, is to be separated from Black men. Even online. So, I’m leaving. Not because I can’t “handle the heat”. My ancestors have been in the fields in 100-degree weather with sunhats on, so I can handle a little heat (and so can you). I’m leaving because I want relations between BM and BW to improve, especially for the women here.

    So, yes. It may be frustrating, Fallible Sage, but the best thing you can do as a Black man is leave this site and not look back. To do ANYTHING ELSE (I say this respectfully, so listen) is to be incredibly arrogant in your own abilities to encourage these women to see things differently and, above all else, unacceptably selfish. This is from one brotha to another brotha. After all, we are the “drunk guys at the party with vomit on our shirts …asking everyone for their numbers”. LMAO!! Charming, no?

    Well, I’m gone. Hopefully, Fallible Sage, you’ll be right there with me. Black men are not supposed to be here.

    • Fallible Sage permalink
      June 26, 2010 10:53 pm

      “What did you hope to accomplish here? That you, being one of the good Black men, might be able to come in and show a different side to the story? Then, the women here, being so impressed by your input, would suddenly see their errors?”

      Honestly Black Man, I hoped to accomplish nothing except to respond. I have no delusions about changing anyone’s mind about anything. But maybe, just maybe, by fleshing out the information so that the whole picture is seen, a passer (white or black) by perusing this site may benefit from the WHOLE picture.

      Also, I’m the last person I’d present as a model of the “good black man,” because that’s relative. To some I’m sure there could be no such thing, and my good works aint changing that.

      That being said, if I’m honest I already considered that this site wasn’t for me and my presence here might be more harmful than good after today and seeing some of the responses today. Not because I think it will harm relations between BM and BW, apparently from what I’ve seen here that’s been accomplished, but because it’s heartbreaking that the actions of some black men have encouraged so much hurt and anger among BW that it expresses itself in this way, and I’ll continue to feel an urge to address what might be cathartic for these women, but unfair or errant. Not to change minds but to offset bias. I am seriously considering walking out the door with you bro. But I’d probably be accused of running away when the going gets tough… just like a black man. 🙂

      …and to Stella below… everyone, all of us, black and white, male and female, play a role in how culture is shaped. I’m doing my part to shape it for the better, hope you’re doing yours.

    • Fallible Sage permalink
      June 26, 2010 10:55 pm

      “What did you hope to accomplish here? That you, being one of the good Black men, might be able to come in and show a different side to the story? Then, the women here, being so impressed by your input, would suddenly see their errors?”

      Honestly Black Man, I hoped to accomplish nothing except to respond. I have no delusions about changing anyone’s mind about anything. But maybe, just maybe, by fleshing out the information so that the whole picture is seen, a passer by(white or black) perusing this site may benefit from the WHOLE picture.

      Also, I’m the last person I’d present as a model of the “good black man,” because that’s relative. To some I’m sure there could be no such thing, and my good works aint changing that.

      That being said, if I’m honest I already considered that this site wasn’t for me and my presence here might be more harmful than good after today and seeing some of the responses. Not because I think it will harm relations between BM and BW, apparently from what I’ve seen here that’s been accomplished, but because it’s heartbreaking that the actions of some black men have encouraged so much hurt and anger among BW that it expresses itself in this way, and I’ll continue to feel an urge to address what might be cathartic for these women, but unfair or errant. Not to change minds but to offset bias. I am seriously considering walking out the door with you bro. But I’d probably be accused of running away when the going gets tough… just like a black man. 🙂

      …and to Stella below… everyone, all of us, black and white, male and female, play a role in how culture is shaped. I’m doing my part to shape it for the better, hope you’re doing yours.

  25. stellas permalink
    June 26, 2010 9:37 pm

    If you want the women on this site to show respect you will have to earn it. You can start by ceasing to make excuses. You can start by being accountable for your behavior. You can start by protecting women and girls of the community. You could shape a culture that shames black men for disgraceful behavior (OOW births,criminiality, degrading of women etc). You can start by not expecting the world to be fair but making it respect you by engaging in life-saving behaviors such as marriage, hard work and making stategic moves. That’s my two cents.

  26. stellas permalink
    June 27, 2010 1:25 am

    More excuses. 🙂

  27. Lisa in NYC permalink
    June 27, 2010 11:44 am

    @BlkQueenBee –

    Wow, that was some truth-telling! You are my new hero.

    And you know sumpthin’? I knew as soon as I read it that the first response from a BM apologist would be that “white men do those same things”.

    Yes, that’s true, but white men are not doing all those bad things to BLACK women, it’s black men that are the guys making black women’s lives crap. Believe me, I noticed you said “black women” and “black girls”.

    White guys are not hanging around in black neighborhoods doing this mess to black women. Neither are Asian guys, or Latin guys or Indian guys.

    And after all, aren’t we talking about the things that black women are going through? Is there anyone that cannot identify the problem for black women? The “black community” (what a cruel joke that phrase is) is not filled up with baby mamas dragging around half-white babies who were abandoned by their white fathers after birth.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you. Like the other commenter said, you put into words what I feel.

    • BlkQueenBee permalink
      June 27, 2010 3:30 pm

      (blushing)

      Thanks, it came from the heart. I’m just so fed up with other black people (men AND women) presuming to tell me what I should think, how I should act, how I should look, who I should date, and everything else, and all because we share some skin pigmentation.

      Being black doesn’t give you a free pass with me, and to break it down further, if you’re a black man, I’m not going to look the other way and pretend everything’s OK while you’re screwing up so badly, just because you’re black, and I’m black.

      Same shout-out to all the black women, “good” black men, white liberals, etc. that want to make excuses for these guys.

      I’m not on a mission to change the world; I just want all of them to leave me the hell alone while I try to make my individual life as good and as fulfilling as possible.

      Life on this planet can be short, and for the most random of unexpected reasons. I’d like to make mine count while I’m here, and I’d like to be happy.

  28. BlkQueenBee permalink
    June 27, 2010 4:21 pm

    “I’m not on a mission to change the world; I just want all of them to leave me the hell alone while I try to make my individual life as good and as fulfilling as possible.

    Life on this planet can be short, and for the most random of unexpected reasons. I’d like to make mine count while I’m here, and I’d like to be happy.”

    Actually, this is not accurate. I would like them to leave all of us the hell alone.

    And I would also like all of you to be happy.

    Here’s hoping for that outcome!

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